文 洪瑞薇 Hung, Jui-Wei
既是劇場編導、也從事聲音創作的黃思農，以這樣雙棲的姿態突出於台灣劇場之中。他與他所屬的再拒劇團，向來敢於直面邊緣議題，並努力挑起感官革命，探索劇場概念的新定義。在甫以《諸神黃昏》獲得2017世界劇場設計展聲音設計金獎之際，以下訪問期待探索，關於聲音與劇場，他是如何思考與實踐的。
As a theater playwright-director and a sound artist, Snow Huang stands out from the others in Taiwan’s theater circle with his dual talent. Along with his Against Again Troupe, Huang has been audacious in addressing social issues that are often deemed “marginal” by the mainstream. He has tried hard to revolutionize the sensory experience of theater-watching and redefine the concept of theater. As his Götterdämmerung had just won the Sound Design Gold Award at the 2017 World Stage Design, we sat down for an interview with Huang to find out about the thinking and execution behind his sound projects and theatrical works.
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華格納革命指環《諸神黃昏》，2014
Der Ring des Nibelungen: A Revolution Unarmed- Götterdämmerung
Photo by: 唐健哲 Chien-Che Tang
Fly Global（以下簡稱FG）：你既為劇場編導，也從事音樂創作，這種雙棲狀態似乎可以很直接地解釋，聲音與劇場為何在你的創作中如此密不可分。然而真是如此嗎？可否描述一下這個關係的進程？You are a theater playwright-director and a sound artist. This duality seems to explain how inseparable sound and theater are in your creation. But is that really so? Could you describe how the relationship between the two genres has evolved in your life?
黃思農（以下簡稱黃）：雖然我從小學音樂，但其實自2002成立再拒劇團的頭幾年，我幾乎都是以編導為主。當時覺得，想要在創作中傳達的東西，比較難透過音樂獨立完成，而做為導演，可以使用更多的元素去完成這個溝通。
Snow Huang (Huang): I started learning music at a very young age. But after I founded Against Again Troupe in 2002, I spent the first couple of years writing and directing. I wanted to convey something through arts, and using music alone wasn’t enough. As a director, I can use many other elements to get my message across.
2007年的《沉默的左手》是再拒的第一齣搖滾音樂劇，我在其中兼任了導演、樂手和共同作曲。2009年的《黑暗潮》和《漢字寓言：忘》，才是比較跨域性質的嘗試，我擔任編導，也做為一名具有角色身分的樂手存在於舞台上。這是我嘗試做「新音樂劇場」的開端，它比較難界定是以聲音或視覺為主。
Silent Left Hand, created in 2007, was the troupe’s first rock musical. I was the director, instrumentalist and co-composer. Kuroshioand Fable to be, or not to be — “Wang (to forget)”, both made in 2009, represent the more interdisciplinary endeavors. I was again the writer-director and a musician playing a role on stage. That was the beginning of my “new music theater”, which cannot be defined as purely sound-based or visual-based.
《諸神黃昏》是另個轉捩點。2014年劇團受邀創作「華格納革命指環」的最終部，回應華格納以音樂為主導的總體劇場，我們決定把聲響演奏、噪音龐克、重金屬、革命歌謠等元素放入這個劇本的當代詮釋裡。我們嘗試以集體創作方式打破單一的導演意志，同時也想開發以聽覺為主的劇場，雖然過程很痛苦，但它碰撞出來的東西是有趣的，這個經驗後來也返回到十位創作者自身。
Götterdämmerung was another turning point. In 2014, the troupe was invited to perform the finale of Der Ring des Nibelungen: A Revolution Unarmed. To complement Wagner’s concept of the music-oriented total theater, we decided to give a contemporary version of the play by adding sound performance, noise punk, heavy metal and revolutionary songs. Adopting a format of collective creation, we tried to break away from the unilateral directorial thinking and create an aurally-engaging theater. The process was rather painful, but the result from all those collisions was interesting. That experience has proven to be rewarding for each of the ten participating artists.
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王瑋廉×黃思農《黑暗潮》，2009
Wei-lian Wang x Snow Huang: Kuroshio
Photo by: 陳顥 Hao Chen
FG：再拒由多位跨域創作者組成，一路認真的挑起劇場感官經驗的革命，舉辦多年的「公寓聯展」即是個著重官能的微型劇場，它原是以公寓裡的狹窄空間為舞台，後來是因何衍生出「漫遊者劇場」，出走到城市空間中？Against Again comprises several interdisciplinary artists, who have dedicated themselves to revolutionizing the sensory experience of theater-watching. Apartment Showcase, which has been held for some years, is a micro-theater focusing on sensory perception. Initially based in a cramped apartment, the project has grown into Promenade Theater that extends into the urban landscape. How did that happen?
黃：「公寓聯展」源起於「微型劇場」宣言，狹小的空間會放大觀眾的感知經驗，創作者也必須尋找新的表演模式和美學表現。它最初發生在劇團的基地、也就是我的住處，一個典型的亞洲公寓，狹長、老舊、光線與通風不良，創作者在廚房、廁所、客廳等做演出，共同生活、彼此看排、討論最後如何將每個演出片段串起，成為一整個晚上的節目。
Huang: Apartment Showcase originated from Micro-Theater Statement. We believe that a narrower venue amplifies the sensory perception of the audience and that artists need to seek new modes of performance and aesthetic expression to adapt to a smaller venue. The project first took place at the troupe’s base, which was our residence. It was a typical Asian apartment – long, narrow, run-down, dark and poorly ventilated. The artists performed in the kitchen, bathroom and living room. We lived together, rehearsed in front of each other and decided how the individual performances were put together as a whole-night show.
其實很多創作者處理的主題，都還是跟城市生活有關，它涉及的不僅僅是這個公寓和創作者的私歷史，所以我們也一直想把這樣的創作模式拉到城市的其它空間。
Many of the themes were related to urban life. It was more than just the personal history of the apartment or the artists themselves, so we always wanted to bring such a mode of creation to other venues in the city.
2009公寓聯展
2009 Apartment Showcase
Photo by: 謝岱汝 Tai-Ju Hsieh
後來我以這個模式在藝廊策了一個展《接下來，是一些些消亡（包括我自己的）》，並加入了一個主題：沒有演員的劇場。這一部分和我們成員的屬性有關，因為有做物件劇場、有做聲音、燈光的人，於是我思考能否運用這些元素去形構一個不在場的人。整個展演圍繞著一個不在場，但造成的效果是更意識到這個人如魅影般的存在。
Later, I curated a performance-exhibition called All that’s left to happen is some deaths (my own included) at an art gallery. I added a theme: a theater without actors. The idea came from the types of artists we had in the troupe. There were some who specialized in object-theater, sound or lighting. So I thought, perhaps I could use those different elements to construct a person who is “not there”. The entire exhibition centered on a person who, despite being absent, made his phantom-like presence felt even more strongly.
從思考劇場的官能性出發，我們慢慢把不同元素放到創作裡，開發出不同的表現性。2016年的公寓聯展決定跨出原本的基地，讓演出散落到城市中其它的公寓，我的《日常練習：消失的動作》是在西門町街區中遊走，以錄音帶的聲音為主體，帶領觀眾的身體去感知這個環境，這是「漫遊者劇場」的開端。
By considering the sensual effect of theater first, we added different elements into the mix, one after another, and developed a different kind of aesthetic expression. For the 2016 Apartment Showcase, we decided to step out of our base and bring the performance to other apartments in the city. My Everyday Practice: Vanishing Act featured strolling tours in Ximending, Taipei City. Using cassette sound as the main element, I invited the audience to perceive their surroundings with their body. That was the beginning of Promenade Theater.
《接下來，是一些些消亡（包括我自己的）》，2013
All that’s left to happen is some deaths (my own included)
再拒劇團提供 Photo provided by Against Again Troupe
FG：「漫遊者劇場」迄今已在台灣、澳門發展了四件作品，它們之間有什麼相承的脈絡？你為何更鍾情於西門町、萬華這類「老台北」，以及磁帶、錄音機等「過往之物」？Promenade Theater has yielded four pieces in Taiwan and Macau. What is the shared background of those works? Why are you fascinated by Ximending, Wanhua, or what we call the “Old Taipei” and “things of the past”, such as cassette and tape recorder?
黃：漫遊者劇場是觀眾透過在城市中不同角落聆聽聲檔的過程，去形構一個沒有演員的演出。它很大程度關乎觀眾在步行及聆聽的過程中所產生的敘事，同時，他的耳朵所聽見的虛構聲音，與眼前所見的真實地景，會產生一種對話或辯證關係。這些感官體驗都是希望觀眾重新去發現城市，或說，揭露城市的日常，特別是揭露當下。
Huang: In Promenade Theater, the audience listens to recordings in various corners of the city. When doing so, they help construct a performance without actors. The outcome is largely decided by the audience’s own narratives which are created during the strolling and listening process. At the same time, the fictional sounds and the actual landscape engage in a dialogue or a dialectical relationship. We hope this sensory experience helps the audience to rediscover the city, or, should I say, unmask the daily routines of the city, especially those that are taking place at the present.
漫遊者劇場《其境／他方》，2017
Promenade Theater: Here/Elsewhere
Photo by: 唐健哲 Chien-Che Tang
無論是哪種劇場，它始終關係著連結了過去、現在和未來的這個連綿不絕的「當下」。創作對我來說，很大的重點便是在揭露這個它，它包括了在現代化過程當中被排除的人與物，去看這個城市排除了什麼，就更能看清這個城市的本質。
Whatever type of theater you look at, every theatrical work deals with an ongoing “present” which connects the past, the present and the future. For artists like us, the most important thing to do is to expose it. “It” includes the people and objects that have been excluded from modernization. Go find out what the city has left behind. Then you would get a better picture of the city’s true nature.
這也是老舊的空間和事物對我來說特別迷人的原因，它們並非全然消逝，而是被遺忘了。那些聲檔是一把通往地下的鑰匙，它在揭露這個城市底下的事。我透過把過去召喚到眼前、和現在產生碰撞，去揭露當下。這個對過往之物的態度，比較不是博物館式的展示概念，所以我並沒有選擇讓一個當地的長者來述說往事，而是創造虛構的偵探文本，以「疏離化」（verfremdungseffekt）作為美學表現的方法，有意識的讓這些事物的不合時宜被強調。
This is why I’m intrigued by old places and old objects. They haven’t completely disappeared, but are just forgotten. Recordings are like a key to the city’s basement. They help excavate what’s been going on under the surface. We unmask the present by summoning the past and making it collide with the present. Such an attitude toward the past is different from, say, running a museum, where you simply showcase things of the past. For that reason, I didn’t just grab a senior resident to talk about the past. What I did was creating a fictional detective text and using verfremdungseffekt, or “distancing effect”, as the aesthetic technique. I deliberately emphasize the “outdatedness” of certain things.
漫遊者劇場《其境／他方》，2017
Promenade Theater: Here/Elsewhere
Photo by: 唐健哲 Chien-Che Tang
FG：類似的過往物事、聲響，也同樣出現在你目前於北美館參展的《年度考核協奏》中，請談談這件作品的創作想法。Things and sounds “of the past” also appear in your Concert of Performance Review, which is currently on display at Taipei Fine Arts Museum. Tell us about the concept behind that project.
黃：《年度考核協奏》運用了卡帶、釘子、槌子等物件，演示著某種辦公室的勞動。白領勞工在日常的工作中，繁複的調整預算、塗改數字、追逐KPI，這與工業時代之後、資本主義造成個人原子化的狀態彼此呼應，我刻意透過某種語言的轉化，將它們疊合起來。
Huang: Concert of Performance Review uses cassettes, nails and hammers to mimic office labor. Day after day, office workers repeatedly adjust corporate budgets, correct numbers and aim for higher KPIs. The scene speaks about the atomization of modern-day societies, which has resulted from the progression of capitalism since the Industrial Revolution. I deliberately chose to describe it in another theatrical language for the audience to draw the connection.
某個人在這端釘了個釘子，可能左右了全盤，致使另個人要在另一端釘釘子，每個人都孤獨的在面對自己做為一個原子的工作狀態。當精心計畫的事情遭遇了某個危機，就必須緊急修正，讓它接近原本的期待值，日常的危機不斷的重演和發生，從中造成了徒勞感，就像作品中的那列循環打轉的火車，永遠凝結在這個反覆發生的焦慮與危機裡，那是尼采所謂的「永劫回歸」的時間。
One person hammers a nail at one end and takes care of his part, but another person may need to hammer his nail at the other end to make the whole thing work. Everyone is solitarily dealing with the state of working like an atom in the atomized social life. However delicate a plan is, whenever a crisis occurs, it calls for immediate correction to restore things so they meet their original estimates. Such daily crises repeat endlessly, creating a feeling of helplessness. It is like the circling train featured in the play – forever trapped in repeated anxiety and crises, or, in the words of Friedrich Nietzsche, caught in “eternal recurrence”.
這個作品也出自我對「譜」的思考：譜與演出的關係有哪些可能？譜是否也發生在演出之後所留下的「痕跡」、而這些「痕跡」反過來成為演出所要完成的目標？諸如此類關於時間的哲學性探問。
This project also reflects my thoughts about “musical notation”: What are the possibilities in the relationship between the notation and the performance? Can notation include the traces of performance after the performance is finished? And can these “traces” become the objectives for a performer? These are some of the philosophical questions about “time” that I would ask myself.
北美館「社交場」展，《年度考核協奏》，2017
Concert of Performance Review, displayed at Arena, Taipei Fine Arts Museum
Photo credit: Dodo
FG：你的聲音創作有個特質是，援用數位工具、卻極力想做出類比的質地，為何如此？One thing unique about your sound pieces is that you use digital tools to create analog textures. Why is that?
黃：數位和類比我都有使用，它們有屬性上的差異，除了聲音本身的特質，還有它們所承載的文化、符號和政治性，因此選擇使用怎樣的聲音，會跟想要處理的主題有關。回到我的創作脈絡，聲音對我來說是一個會消失的東西，譬如卡帶，它就像個記憶的載體，它是有身體的，可以明確的拿在手上，被播放、快轉或倒轉，然後有一天會消磁。如果我想在創作中揭露現代性的不牢靠，那麼使用卡帶是比較貼合這個處境的。此外我也有個人偏好，我確實覺得類比很迷人，而且在台灣做類比噪音的人並不多，我想要嘗試在這個形式中有什麼表現可能。當然數位工具有它的便利性，這甚至影響了創作內容，譬如機械時代與數位時代對於重複和拼貼手法與使用差異，它開啟了不少可能。
Huang: I use both digital and analog mediums. They are fundamentally different, not only in the sound qualities they produce, but also in cultural, semiotic and political significance. Therefore, the choice between digital and analog depends on what theme you’re dealing with. Let’s get back to the background of my creation. To me, “sound” is something that can vanish. For example, a cassette is a memory carrier. It’s tangible. You can hold it in your hand, play it, forward it or rewind it. And one day, you erase it. If I want to highlight the unreliability in modern life, then cassette would be a more suitable medium. I have my preference, too. I do find analog sounds more appealing. Besides, there aren’t many Taiwanese artists who specialize in analog noise. I wanted to find out what possibilities I could get out of it. Of course, digital tools are more convenient. It makes a difference to what you create. For example, if you compare the works from the mechanical era and the digital era, you would find a lot of differences in sound editing techniques. So digital technology did open up many possibilities.
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北美館「社交場」展，《年度考核協奏》，2017
Concert of Performance Review, displayed at Arena, Taipei Fine Arts Museum
Photo by: 唐健哲 Chien-Che Tang
FG：在聲音劇場的創作中，你最在意的事情有哪些？或者說，你最想要讓觀眾體驗到的是什麼？In creating sound theater, what are the things you care most about? Or, should I ask, what are the things that you want your audience to experience most?
黃：在這樣不再視覺獨大的劇場裡，有一個很大的關於感官接收的可開發處女地，既然改變了感知模式，它也就會影響到觀者與作品的距離，使人產生新的意識。姑且把文本內容都拋開，期待觀眾至少可以意識到，我們對聽覺的敏銳性，在生活過程當中慢慢的退化了。在經歷了這樣的作品以後，當走進一個地方，他或許會開始想，現在聽到了什麼聲音？我覺得聲音劇場或新音樂劇場其實就是在提醒我們，要用不同的角度去感知習以為常的日常。Huang: In a theater that is no longer monopolized by visual sensations, there is a huge virgin land to cultivate new sensory experience. Since the mode of perception is altered, it changes the distance between the audience and the artwork and thereby helps them make new realizations. Let’s ignore the textual content of the play for the sake of argument, then we could at least expect the audience to realize that our (human being’s) sensitivity to sound gradually deteriorates as we move on with our daily life. After experiencing a theatrical work like this, a person, whenever he steps into a new environment, may begin to ask himself:What’s the sound I’m hearing? I think sound theater or new music theater is about reminding us to perceive, from a different perspective, the daily routines that we have taken for granted.
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